There's an article in today's 'The Age' about a woman who tried to breastfeed her child on a Tiger Airways flight, only to be told to cover up by one of the hostesses.
The pivotal moment of the article for me was:
Mrs Ward said she told the attendant that she had a right to breastfeed, but was asked again to cover her baby because a man seated near her ''might not like to see it''.
''I said to [the man], 'Does this offend you?' and he said, 'No, not at all.'
The man sums up what I suspect is the view of 95% of us. No, we are not offended by breastfeeding. There may be some that are slightly uncomfortable, some may even be squeamish, but, I imagine they are in the minority. The rest of us have a 'whatever' attitude. Hell, the kids need their milk. Beats having a screaming kid next to you on the airplane / in the cinema / at the shop.
1. There seems to be in general Australian society these days some sort of workplace-driven set of things that are considered offensive but ironically do not happen to offend anyone at all. They are offensive only in that they are said to be offensive, but I don't know of one person that is offended by them. Breastfeeding is one. Swearing is another (maybe not 'cunt', but, let's say, 'shit'). Cleavage is another. Dress-sense is another.
I know, it all depends on what industry/environment one is in, but I'm talking very generally.
What's more, people will be offended by these things in the workplace even though they may not be offended by them the second they walk out the door. "Oh, you can't say 'bullshit'", the woman may say to the bank-teller, even though that same woman may say it herself all the time. There's every chance that the hostess on the plane wouldn't care if her sister was breastfeeding at the kitchen table, but, because it's in the workplace, suddenly this thing that does not offend her, offends her.
I told a client recently that her idea was 'stupid' and she laughed. But, a work colleage looked at me afterwards and said, "You shouldn't have said 'stupid'. You should have played it safe and said something like, "I don't believe your concept has a viable outcome." I threw a copy of Don Watson's 'Death Sentence' at her and claimed my right to speak plainly... to speak and act like a normal human being.
Maybe it's our Englishness (even an Aussie without any English blood adopts / retains elements of Englishness that most of England even gave up on years ago).
Foucault has a lot to answer for. We're not just muddying the language in order to appease a non-existent fringe element, we're muddying behaviour.
If you want to breastfeed your child, do so. Nobody really cares.
UPDATE / ANECDOTE / ILLUSTRATION
A few years ago I woked at a company with about 150 employees. The Maltese receptionist wore, in summer, low lying tops, thus revealing some cleavage. Not slutty, but a bit revealing. She wasn't slutty in herself either. She was a really nice girl and was popular amongst the staff. Anyway, one day, the HR woman told her to not to reveal cleavage any more. I happened to be talking to the HR woman later and this was the convesration...
HR: I had to tell Receptionist to not wear such revealing clothing. It was awkward, bit it had to be done. She's so nice, and she was really embarrassed.
Me: Did someone complain.
HR: No.
Me: So why stop her?
HR: Well, it could be deemed offensive.
Me: By who?
HR: Clients, perhaps.
Me: Did a client complain?
HR: No.
Me: She's been here more than a year, she's a brilliant receptionist, clients come in all day... nobody has a problem with her dress sense, and yet, you have now made her feel bad.
HR: But it had to be done!
Me: Why?
HR: Because you can't dress like that in a professional environment.
Me: Why not?
HR: Because it's not professional.
Me: Who says?
HR: Umm... society.
Me: Who?
HR: Society!
Me: But we're society. Her colleagues, and our clients, and none of us have a problem with it.
HR: But they might.
Me: But they don't!
**
(May I emphasise, it's not like she dressed like a hooker. There was just a bit of cleavage, and indeed some of the management women dressed far more seductively, but because she was 'the receptionist' and at the front desk of the building, a different rule seemed to apply for no apparent reason).
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93 comments:
I guess it depends how you're doing it. If she had her whole breast out, I would be uncomfortable and would have appreciated the stewardess asking her to cover up. However, if she was breastfeeding with a cloth over the baby's head as most women do, then I wouldn't have a problem.
But then, I'm a prude. And I suspect I'm going to get flamed for saying this. Yes, I know it's a natural human thing blah blah blah. So is farting, and I would be equally uncomfortable and offended if someone was doing that next to me on a plane.
I would be offended by farting too, Puss, because it would effect me and my space.
Oh, come on Puss.
There's a world of difference between farting and breast feeding.
The old conservative / religious / Victorian era mentalities die hard.
People don't like seeing breast-feeding because 'OMG it's a boob!!!' and some men might be enflamed with passion once seeing it.
People do forget in their righteous indignations that breasts evolved primarily to feed babies - their value in sexual selection was secondary.
Puss, you have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to feel uncomfortable seeing a naked breast feeding a baby. But I see no reason for society to curtail the rights of nursing mothers just so you can indulge your weird obsessions.
Yep, I think you are going to get flamed.
If the full breast needs to be out, as it sometimes does for the baby to get a good connection, then so be it. Fish got to swim, baby's got to eat.
In Puss's defence, she didn't ask for it to be banned.
No, I didn't ask for it to be banned. And I also would never ask a woman to cover up if she was breast feeding. I understand that it's my own fault I'm offended and uncomfortable by it, and because of that, I would simply move away if someone was breast feeding with their full breast out in public. And even on a plane, I would never ask a stewardess to ask someone to cover up. All I said was that it makes me uncomfortable, and if a stewardess did ask a woman to cover up while she breast fed, I would be thankful for it. But I would never request such a thing.
But I see no reason for society to curtail the rights of nursing mothers just so you can indulge your weird obsessions.
I never asked them to, Boogey.
I always feel a bit sorry for babies stuck under modesty veils. It must get stuffy under there
I cant stand the sight of someone elses swollen, cracked and dark brown nipple.
Breast feeding nipples look to be pretty damn ugly and I dont want to see it waving about near my face, especially if the ugly nipple owner is sitting squished up right next to me in cattle class.
If they can do it without showing me that thing, then its fine cause a bit of boob never hurt anyone, but if they show that nipple thing to me, it wont be just baby spew they'll be cleaning up off them.
Its all about aesthetics for me.
I wonder what the women in Burkas do?
Thats exactly what I was thinking squib - especially in a country as hot as Australia - and thats why I never used one. I have always felt a bit uncomfortable seeing women breastfeed but only in a self-conscious (oh I hope she doesn't think I'm staring) way. My son wouldn't take a bottle and breastfed for 16 months. I got very used to breastfeeding in public and never cared what anyone thought. I would be very militant in sticking up for a breastfeeding mother now.
Pepsi, are you suggesting people cover anything you find aesthetically displeasing? Should people with disfigured faces wear brown paper bags?
Cracked, swollen, and *brown? That's a complete generalisation
*what is wrong with brown?
Patch, yay for breasts!
"Yay for babies" I think. And to me, in a civilised society we should protect the needs of the weakest. The babies needs should override the air hostesses, the man across the aisle and the mothers. Its very simple.
Pepsi, are you suggesting people cover anything you find aesthetically displeasing?
Yes, sounds like a great idea.
Should people with disfigured faces wear brown paper bags?
I said ugly, not perfect.
Cracked, swollen, and *brown? That's a complete generalisation
Of course, you dont notice the ones in good nick do you, just the ugly ones.
*what is wrong with brown?
All nipples are brown arent they, some are just pinker than others.
I think one of the few articles written by Jack Marx that I enjoyed was on the suject of offence and how it doesn't just happen to you but is something that must be taken.
I tend to think there's quite a difference between being uncomfortable with something and taking offence, as being uncomfortable is something you don't really have any control over. Breast feeding, swearing, etc doesn't bother me in the slightest. Nor am I offended by farting, as a lot of the time I think it's something that just can't be helped.
The only thing I can think of that I am actively offended by is the people who seem to think it's their right to smoke anywhere/everywhere they please, and will even argue with you if you ask them not to smoke in your home/car.
My sister just randomly sent me this email, which I thought was quite appropriate. And it appears I am not the only one who thinks the way I do:
Speaking of outrage, I get outraged about breastfeeding mothers being outraged about people asking them to cover up while breastfeeding.
It’s not hard to have a light shawl to protect the dignity of yourself and your child.
Just because you have a kid doesn’t mean you should get your tits out in public.
/rant off
However, she's a bit more cut-and-dried about it than I am.
Alex, I get a little bit apoplectic when I see a car parked on the footpath. I just want to pop all their windows with a bat
I always wondered why you would normally be arrested for getting your tits out in public, but attach a baby to one of them and suddenly its perfectly acceptable.
If you breastfeed a child until the age of 8 or 10 would it still be acceptable to breastfeed that child in public? Is there an age where you draw the line?
And if a fully grown man decided to suckle on your breasts in public, would that be considered offensive? After all, you are doing exactly the same thing, its only the size of the human feeding on you that is different.
(Anyone seen the Little Britain skit of the breast feeding man? So funny and very gross).
Actually, I can agree with that Squib. It's a problem that's becoming more noticeable around where I live, as the properties are continuously being sub-divided into smaller and smaller allotments.
I think this post goes to show that HR is filled with the not-very-intelligent-but-well-educated children of the middle class. Once they've got a career in HR, they do stupid things to justify their existence.
Rather like "Comms" people, LS.
Kitten, my general feeling on exposed breast is that if a man can go somewhere shirtless, then a woman should be able to as well. I don't see any reason why one nipple should be considered more nude than another. Obviously the law doesn't agree with me on that, but there you go.
One of my school friends had her baby last year, & they came to visit me. The baby was a bit grizzly & wanted a feed, so out came the boob.
She said to me that she hoped it didn't make me uncomfortable, but the breastfeeding experience made her see them as feeding machines, & after a few weeks of doing it you really become less self-conscious about pulling the boob out & feeding your baby in public.
It was a weird moment, & if I'm honest at first it did make me uncomfortable but we just kept on with the conversation & I forgot she was even doing it in the end.
So, initially I felt awkward, but having my friend be sympathetic but practical at the same time meant I built a bridge & got over it pretty quick-smart. She didn't need to make sure I wasn't uncomfortable with it, but I appreciated the fact she was aware I might find it a bit of a weird moment at first.
I think if it was me, I'd follow my friends example & just let the people around me know what's about to happen & hope any awkwardness is lessened by the fact the baby's not screaming bloody murder. A bit of manners all around never goes astray.
And I've never liked the idea of those covers to put over the baby's head. I always thought it would be a horrible way to eat your lunch.
You're right - its discrimination! As for your sister Puss,
It’s not hard to have a light shawl to protect the dignity of yourself and your child
- again, its dignity vs breathing and I know which my child cared more about. Babies will try to throw off the shawl and it distracts them. I found the shawl a hassle. I think as a society we will mature and get used to mothers breastfeeding in public.
If they are going to a public place, why the hell cant they just pump it?
Its just bad planning on the mothers part.
There are appropriate times and places for flashing tits. And if they really have to do it, I would ask them to please do it with a bit of dignity and show a bit of respect for the people around them who probably NEVER EVER wanted to see their tits in the first place.
If you are pissed and in a bar/club/strip joint and you get your tits out to give the baby a feed, I wouldnt blink, see appropriate time and a place.
At the risk of stating the obvious, if the woman in question has a large infant attached, busy feeding, then they're hardly flashing their tits around.
If she had her whole breast out, I would be uncomfortable and would have appreciated the stewardess asking her to cover up.
vs
And I also would never ask a woman to cover up if she was breast feeding.
So, what you're saying Puss is that you wouldn't actively ask, but you'd be mighty glad if someone else did the asking for you, and wouldn't speak up in the poor breastfeeding mother's defence.
As far as I can see, you're splitting a very fine hair there.
Oh, and Pepsi, by natural extension of your own argument, perhaps you should cover up a little more also - after all, no one wants to see dimpled cellulite, flabby white arms or saggy cleavage out in public.
You're probably right, Boogey. But it's a fine hair I'm willing to split.
Discretion is the key isnt it, the good and proper flashers v the barely notice. I like the way Witchie puts it, its the mothers choice, a breastfeeding mother is indistinguishable from any other mother, unless she chooses otherwise.
Hey Boogs, it is a natural extension of the argument, and I practice what I preach. The dimples are only out on the beach (time and place), my lily white toned arms rarely see sleeve-less and my bras are personally fitted so there is no sag.
If they are going to a public place, why the hell cant they just pump it?
Its just bad planning on the mothers part.
Stick it up your fucking jumper
If you are pissed and in a bar/club/strip joint and you get your tits out to give the baby a feed, I wouldnt blink, see appropriate time and a place.
Yeah, that's so logical
So who gets to define what is an appropriate time and place, Pepsi? You? Or do we rely on the rather nebulous, evolving and impossible to pin down notion of 'societal acceptability'?
Boogey, for me, I do.
In general, isnt it some sort of measure or level that reduces collective offense.
On Tiger Airlines, I expect it would be the operating guidelines of the airline. In this instance the hostie went against them, probably because she didnt know what they were, and was disciplined because of it.
Squib, I dont see why you are getting so angry. So many mothers of young children do plan ahead and organise things so well. Its a shame the flashers give breast feeders who just quietly get on with it such a bad rap.
WitchOne, as for the homelessness, someone told me it's difficult to get Centrelink if you don't have a physical address. So if you've been kicked out and have nowhere to go, it's a vicious circle. You can't get a place to stay until you get help, but you can't get help until you get a place to stay.
Obviously it would be easier to apply for Centrelink before you were made homeless, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
I'm offended and amused by how so many women get offended about people getting offended about people breast feeding in public.
Witchie, I'd rather suck on a cigarette.
xoxox
Oh my god I can't believe what's coming out of the woodwork here.
I'm not even going to waste my time commenting , but I didn't realise there was such conservatism and backwardness amongst the people on this site.
You just did, Melba.
And I still can't see what's backward about feeling uncomfortable about some woman flashing her tits all over the place, whether it's for feeding purposes or not.
As Witchie said, there are discreet ways of feeding a baby in public, and I wouldn't be uncomfortable if I was next to a woman who did such a thing. It's the ones who like to scream loudest about their right to feed their babies anywhere they go, and who brandish their bare breasts like they're weapons and who are seemingly just trying to get a reaction out of people that really irritate me.
If there are discreet ways of feeding a baby in public, why wouldn't you choose that option?
And I still can't see what's backward about feeling uncomfortable about some woman flashing her tits all over the place, whether it's for feeding purposes or not.
Then let me be the first to enlighten you about what's so backwards about your uncomfortable feelings.
They're breasts. Lumps of human flesh. No more, no less. Just like the lumps on display at the tops of your legs, at the ends of your arms, and at various places on your face. None of which are so disgusting as to require covering up.
Apparently you even once showed your lumps of flesh located just south of your clavicles for money. And yet they're such terrible things to display and must be kept hidden. Tsk tsk.
Two hundred years ago people would have been mortified to see a bit of thigh. Nowadays people display it without a second thought. So do you think the antiquated prudes of yesteryear are right?
If there are discreet ways of feeding a baby in public, why wouldn't you choose that option?
Why should you have to? Because some people can't accept that tits are for more than ogling?
Besides which, many women who attempt to feed a baby discretely are still ostracised, predominantly because of the same prudish attitudes you and Pepsi display.
When I said I wasn't going to waste my time commenting, I meant going into detail about any and all of my possible responses to this shit.
And even though it looks like *this* is a response, it's simply an explanation, and there won't be any more from me on this thread.
I'm so glad you cleared that up Melba. I think.
By the way, the last I heard, the World Health Organisation recommends 3 years as being the ideal amount of time to breastfeed a baby.
Are you male or female Pepsi? Have you had a baby? For me, the first 6 months of caring for a baby was like permanent jet lag. You are up feeding the baby every few hours around the clock and dont even know if you are awake or asleep half the time. I remember the first time Jack slept through at 7 months and I had a full nights sleep, for the first time I felt I could face the day.
Expressing milk involves sterilising bottles and a lot of time using the pump, which can be uncomfortable. You then have to spend as long again putting the milk into the baby. Its double handling and the last thing you are going to be bothered with when you are barely managing to function because you are in a sleep deprived coma. Plus my baby wouldnt take a bottle anyway so there goes that idea.
I wish I never mentioned it.
Oh come on Pers you knew this would be one hell of a 'hornets nest' and you just had to poke a big stick into it.
Breast feeding is great, inpublic is great too. Just be aware of those around you who may be offended. Sure it is our right as Mothers to breastfeed whenever or wherever, but what is wrong with taking into consideration those around us.
Personally my milk was like water so I didn't feed each baby past 3 months. When I did feed in public I just sat down and put a light muslin cloth over her head in the summer and a shi-shi pashmina in winter. I loved the fact that I could be discussing world issues, politics or the bloody rugby scores with my very blokey mates and they had no idea what was going on under the veil. It was only when they spotted a pair of little feet poking out they got it but never felt uncomfortable.So can we say each to their own.
As for Tiger, I would have refused to stop but then again I would've had something over my boob and baby. If Trolley Dolly insisted I still would've refused.... what are they going to do? Call the Feds when I get to Coolongatta? (that is if you ever make it to your destination)*.
Anecdote time.. sitting in a doctors waiting room and very 'alternate' Mum sits down pulls massive boob out and feed her 2 year old. No big deal as this is Northern NSW and pretty common sight. An older gent (WW2 veteran aged) shifts in his seat. A little boy of about 4 years is sitting with his Mum and has been playing with his penis the whole time since they arrived over 15 minutes ago. Even hippy lactating Mummy is rolling her eyes at him. His poor Mum is mortified and is trying desperately to change his focus onto something less enjoyable, like Kerri Anne Kennerly on the TV, when the old man pipes up with "Don't worry bout him love its just natural like her over there with her tits out". Brillant and so true.
As for the receptionist, HR are governed by upper management in most cases, so I would ask HR chick where in company policy does it state regulations on dress code. I agree that receptionist's attire and demenour are important as they greet the clients and they must dress smartly but it should be made clear to ALL staff what the dress code and expectations are.
*it is Tiger Airlines we're talking about people.
They're breasts. Lumps of human flesh. No more, no less. Just like the lumps on display at the tops of your legs, at the ends of your arms, and at various places on your face. None of which are so disgusting as to require covering up.
I would liken breasts to something more like a penis or vagina, which do require covering up. Are you suggesting everyone just goes naked in public? The fact of the matter is, showing female breasts in public is called 'indecent exposure.' If it's not right to flash your penis in public, then why is it ok to flash your breasts in public, even when there's a baby attached? As others have said, mothers can do it so discreetly you wouldn't even know they were feeding. So why don't they? Why wouldn't you have the self respect to do it discreetly?
Apparently you even once showed your lumps of flesh located just south of your clavicles for money. And yet they're such terrible things to display and must be kept hidden. Tsk tsk.
I was waiting for someone to bring that up. The difference there, Boogey, is that I was in a venue where it wouldn't be offensive to people. I was not out in public. People paid to come in and see them. People were well aware there would be breasts on display when they entered the venue. That is a completely different situation to getting your breasts out in a public place where such a thing would normally have you arrested.
Why should you have to? Because some people can't accept that tits are for more than ogling?
I'm not arguing that breasts were made for feeding infants. But I still don't want to see them in public. Vaginas were made for making babies (amongst other natural human processes), and I don't want to see them in public either. It has nothing to do with "ogling."
Besides which, many women who attempt to feed a baby discretely are still ostracised, predominantly because of the same prudish attitudes you and Pepsi display.
Who's ostracising women who feed discretely? I'm certainly not. I said at the start that if they covered up, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. It's the ones who seem to be daring people to say something to them, who refuse to be discreet about it because it's "their right" that annoy me.
What's interesting is that the non-parents are mostly saying "stop that ostentatious breast-feeding, you shameless hussy" and the parents are mostly saying "yeah, whatever, who gives a shit".
Melba, you are a wise woman
I would liken breasts to something more like a penis or vagina, which do require covering up. Are you suggesting everyone just goes naked in public? The fact of the matter is, showing female breasts in public is called 'indecent exposure.'
Personally, I don't give a shit about people going naked, or flashing penises or vaginas.
There's nothing inherently offensive about breasts that require they should be covered up in public. WTF?
The difference there, Boogey, is that I was in a venue where it wouldn't be offensive to people. I was not out in public. People paid to come in and see them. People were well aware there would be breasts on display when they entered the venue. That is a completely different situation to getting your breasts out in a public place where such a thing would normally have you arrested.
So, in your value system, it's ok to display breasts indoors for lecherous men paying money, but it's disgusting and immoral to get them out in public to feed a baby?
Or is your argument that it's normally illegal to flash breasts sans baby in public, therefore it should also be illegal to do so when feeding a baby?
That hardly makes it right, does it? I'd argue that the rights of a helpless infant to a feed any time they need it, and the rights of the mother to feed her baby unhindered by fears of social ostracision, far outstrip the rights of a bunch of men to leer at breasts in a darkened club.
I'm not arguing that breasts were made for feeding infants. But I still don't want to see them in public.
Maybe you don't want to see them. But why should we encourage yours or any similar attitudes on the subject? You haven't produced any arguments that would suggest that the status quo re: breastfeeding in public is inherently good and correct.
It is my contention that curmudgeonly attitudes like yours are actually illogical, reactionary, and most certainly should be rejected by lawmakers and policy makers, as they make the life of nursing mothers more difficult, prevent babies getting the ideal feed when out in public, and contribute to parents feeling like second class citizens who can't go out amongst 'decent, respectable people' without endless preparations for fear they might offend someone.
Who's ostracising women who feed discretely? I'm certainly not. I said at the start that if they covered up, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. It's the ones who seem to be daring people to say something to them, who refuse to be discreet about it because it's "their right" that annoy me.
And I said before that you were hair splitting, to which you agreed. For every one of you accepting that they 'feed discretely with a cloth over the baby, preventing me seeing their disgusting tits', there's a whole bunch more saying 'I don't want to see her getting them out at all', and your fine point of discrimination between your attitudes gets lost.
But anyway, why should the breastfeeding mother have to cover up? Can you conceptualise the difficulty of juggling a baby in one hand, trying to keep him or her attached to your breast, while trying to keep some sort of 'modesty cloth' from falling off the poor kid's head, just to preserve the public's sensibilities? And god forbid that poor mother doesn't have nice demure B or C cup breasts that can be kept partly out of your sight within their top, but rather has a pair of milk-laden DDs waiting to explode, that are nigh impossible to keep hidden.
Personally, I think you'll find that most breastfeeding mothers who you think are so 'out there' aren't actually giving a shit about provoking any reaction from you, but are more concerned with a) feeding their baby, and b) relieving the pressure of all that milk within their breasts. It's only you projecting your neuroses on them that envisages some sort of provocative protest on their part.
Perseus said... I wish I never mentioned it.
Suck it up princess. If you weren't internet flirting with Puss you'd be right in there arguing this too.
Personally, I don't give a shit about people going naked, or flashing penises or vaginas.
Personally, I'd rather people didn't go pantless. But that's mainly an issue of hygiene on public transport.
Stick it up your fucking jumper
I like the way you think, Squib.
Boogey is far more eloquent in his argument than I am, so I'll just say "What Boogey said".
Even before the Fadlets were born I had no problem with breast-feeding in public. It just doesn't make sense to be offended by something so small and insignificant to anyone not directly involved in the process.
I know of someone who breastfed her 4 year old in McDonalds after it had just eaten a happy meal.
I dont think the feeding was done discreetly in any way shape or form. Those who witnessed it were grossed out. As I would have been had I been there.
"There is no scientific proof that a baby requires a milk feed after the age of 1."
That makes no sense. All the nutritional benefits to breastfeeding continue for as long as you continue breastfeeding. They don't automatically stop at 12 months. I can provide the proof if you need it.
Really kitten? You were grossed out by an act you heard about second hand? You poor thing.
It might not be common to breastfeed a 4 year old, but some choose to do it, and I'd say it's one of those issues where the mother decides. And to the rest of the holier-than-thou r*tards pausing to gawk in disgust, what's wrong with them downing a small cup of 'mind your own damn business'?
Really kitten? You were grossed out by an act you heard about second hand?
I was too, although in my defence it was 2 Girls, 1 Cup. Once I watched it though...
Post by Perseus - check,
Kitten being a knucklehead - check,
Boogey punching on - check.
This has all the hallmarks of another TSFKA classic.
"If you weren't internet flirting with Puss you'd be right in there arguing this too."
Not true!
Well, maybe a bit true.
Oh, it's true.
*sobs*
...but in my defence, none of the 62 comments above directly address the point of my post, which was, that what is offensive to a minority is legislated as offensive to everybody, whether it be breastfeeding or anything else for that matter.
I should've used stem cell research to make my point rather than milky norks.
Apparently with your quotes in, the character count is exceeded. I'm sure you can work out what I'm referring to, however. Also, it's still too big even without them, so I have split it in two.
Clearly there is something inherently offensive about breasts that require them to be covered up in public, otherwise there wouldn't be a law saying so, and it would also be socially acceptable for women to walk around topless down the mall.
I didn't say anything about breast feeding in public being disgusting or immoral. I merely said there are discreet ways to do it, and I don't see why a woman wouldn't choose that way. And for the record, I also find it odd that men would pay to see naked breasts at a strip club. However, the difference here is the time and place. People don't go out into the mall or wherever expecting to see naked breasts. If you go to a strip club, you imply consent by the act of paying the money and walking through the door. Don't want to see naked breasts? Don't go in. It's a very simple concept. It's not at all the same thing with breastfeeding in public.
I'm not suggesting it should be illegal at all. I'm merely saying, and I feel like a broken record now, that there are discreet ways of doing it. However, I also don't see why there is one rule for one thing and another for something else. Why does flashing your bare breasts in public become ok just because you gave birth? And I'm not talking about a little bit of clevage here, or whatever. There are women out there who expose their breast before even reaching for their baby. As I have said repeatedly, there are discreet ways of feeding a baby in public. I believe it was Witchie who said that no one could even tell she was breast feeding when she did it, and that it looked like she was just cuddling her baby.
I agree with you. My only issue here is discretion.
Nor do I need to. I was merely mentioning my own opinion on the matter. And I recognised that I was a prude, and that I would get flamed for saying it. The thing is, Boogey, that society is already leaning the other way. It already is fine for people to breast feed in public however they want to. Although there are people out there who agree with my opinion, I suspect I'm in the minority. So why are you getting so uptight about my opinion? It has no effect on you, or anyone else out there. I have repeatedly said that I would never ask anyone to cover up when breastfeeding. Just because I find it uncomfortable does not mean I am doing anything wrong.
See my above comment. I highly doubt parents are ostracised in this society. If anything, everything seems to be about parents. It's the single people who get nothing in this society, and perhaps that's how it should be, since we're not contributing to the growth of the population or whatever else those who procreate are doing. Fair enough. But I don't accept your position that parents are ostracised or feel put out in this society when practically everything revolves around them.
Just because someone else has the opinion that people shouldn't breast feed in public at all does not mean that I do, and I don't see how that applies to any of my statements. You appear to be projecting your anger towards that type of people on to me.
When I say 'discretion', I'm also not talking about a cloth over the baby's head. Witchie said before she just looked like she was cuddling her baby. I've seen women breast feed before without a cloth and there wasn't anything to see. I am not suggesting all breast feeding mothers should put a cloth over their baby's head. Discretion is not that difficult.
Again, this is not about cloths. And for the record, I have seen plenty of DD women who can feed discretly without a cloth, so your argument doesn't fly.
Someone else mentioned the feminazis before. I believe it was Witchie again. There are those who bare their breasts on purpose, Boogey, because they're reactionary and just waiting for someone to tell them off. I'm not suggesting all women are doing this. I merely said there were some. I also said it was those women who annoy me, not *all* breast feeding women.
And anyway, I don't see why you're spending so long arguing with someone who has clearly and repeatedly said they would never project their beliefs onto someone else anyway. I would never ask a breast feeding mother to cover up in public. I recognise that my opinion is in a minority and rapidly shrinking into oblivion. However, I am allowed to have my opinion that I believe breast feeding can be done discretely, and I don't understand why a woman wouldn't choose this option.
You're not going to change my mind on this point, and since I'm never going to voice this point in public, and only did so here because I like to have debates with people to try and understand other people's points of views, I really think you're wasting your time arguing with me. I would change my opinion if someone could adequately explain to me why it was impossible to breast feed in public discreetly. Saying, "why should they?" is not going to convince me.
Nicely put Puss.
If you are exposed to it, you are involved in it.
Only a narrow minded selfish idiot thinks you are not.
Its hard to mind your own business when you are involved in it.
Besides which, many women who attempt to feed a baby discretely are still ostracised, predominantly because of the same prudish attitudes you and Pepsi display.
Read the comments again Boogie, discrete is fine, I don’t think anybody here has put forward a view of no breast feeding in public, I think that discretion is what is being asked for by some, including me.
I feel quite flattered that you think I have a prudish attitude, I have never been called a prude before in my life. I am quite ok with feeding if its done in a way that you don’t notice (as I have said all the way through) but am thoroughly and utterly disgusted and revolted at the women who get the breast out and leave it naked for quite some time till the feeding commences then go out of their way to bring attention to what they do in an arrogant and smug way. This I detest and will protest against.
Its not about morality or value judgments, its about knowing what you will be exposed to when you go to a place and if you don’t want to be exposed to that, you have a choice not to go to that place.
I expect to see breasts in a strip joint, if I go there I accept that. If I don’t want to see breasts I make a choice not to go there. Are you telling me now that even though I don’t want to see a naked breast in public other than the beach/stripjoint, I have no choice in the matter, I am forced to see something that I don’t want to see and theres no place I can go that is safe from seeing that?
I understand and appreciate the concept of children, but I don’t particularly like them. I make an effort to go out of my way to avoid the places they tend to be, and if I am in ‘their world’ I put up. I expect the same consideration and courtesy from the children and the people that manage these children when they happen to wander into the places I go.
Squibs articulate and intelligent response to my real query on why people cant just plan ahead with babies is amusing. I see so many happy contented successful mothers of young children who manage this. So it was an honest question from someone who hasn’t a clue about all this baby shit – if some can, why cant the others?
I cant be mad at Squib though, as she has provided me with one of the funniest moments ever in the interwebs - a woman who didnt know if her husband was circumcised or not though she has born children to him – this was pure comedy gold.
I also think there is nothing wrong with having discussions about issues like this, sharing different views and opinions on issues that are so in your face can only lead to a better understanding about the views of both side. I don’t see there being a right or wrong in this instance, and if you think there is you are an idiot. People believe they have a right to feed a children where ever they want, and other people also believe they have a right to not have to be exposed to an exposed breast if they don’t want to be.
Both rights are valid, nobody is right and nobody is wrong, so what can we do but compromise.
I'm working on a media release at the moment and instead of writing "participants" I wrote "partitipants".
I hope you're all happy with yourselves.
Squibs articulate and intelligent response to my real query on why people cant just plan ahead with babies is amusing. I see so many happy contented successful mothers of young children who manage this. So it was an honest question from someone who hasn’t a clue about all this baby shit – if some can, why cant the others?
It didn't come across as an honest query
Surely you realise that breast milk straight from the breast is fresh and warm and convenient?
Not only is a breast pump awkward and uncomfortable but the bottle needs to be sterilised (as does the pump), as Patch has mentioned. The bottle, pump, and sterilising equipment all cost money too. The breast is free
Then when you are out and about you face the problem of a) keeping the expressed milk cold until feeding time and then b) warming it up. Many cafes will not heat baby milk up due to concerns with uneven heating and scalding
Finally there is the problem of engorgement. Because the breastfeeding mother has expressed milk at an earlier time than she would normally feed her baby, this stimulates the breast into producing a truckload of milk for the next feed. The message sent to the breast is, the baby is really hungry because it has drank twice as much as normal. So you're out and about when bingo your milk comes in and you get a sopping bra. Whether or not you have pads in your bras, this is still an uncomfortable situation
What is with the lack of English comprehension with some people?
"As I would have been had I been there"
Translated for the fucking idiots who can't read - I was not grossed out. I was not there. I was not grossed out because I was not there. If I was there I believe I would be grossed out. But as I was not there I was not grossed out.
Therefore, in conclusion, No I was not grossed out by something I did not see.
Got it?
"Those who witnessed it were grossed out."
This means that those who were present were grossed out. I know this because they told me. I was not there. I was not grossed out. The people who were there were grossed out.
Do I need to make it any clearer?
Plus, on my other posts, I don't know how many times I have to state that the group I refer to is not a DATING site, yet people keep insisting that every dating/sex organisation MUST be the one I am referring to.
Please people, read the fucking posts!
Keep going Kitten, we'll get this to 100 comments, just you see.
I can't believe there are women out there who find it offensive, or men for that matter. My only problem would be if I happened to notice that the mother in question was breastfeeding and she thought I was having a perve. That would be a teeny weeny bit embarrassing, and my problem not hers. I think it was PG who made that observation too.
Perhaps it's because I live here and women have them out all the time. In the villages, older women in particular, have them out all the time. Breasts are for feeding kids. On the other hand women must be careful to cover their thighs in public because they quite rightly figure that between the legs is where the action is.
And as FAD pointed out (I think with credit to Jack Marx - what happened to him I wonder?) offense is a subjective thing, you have to take it.
we'll get this to 100 comments
...so, what do you think about this whole Polanski thing?
Squib, surely Polanski is worthy of his own separate article and posts!
Puss - I am having a go at the opinion you are expressing, because it is only a tad removed from those who oppose all sorts of public breastfeeding.
I realise I'm not going to change your mind. But I am of the mind that if offensive and discriminatory opinions are not opposed vigorously, then they are left to stand as acceptable.
Pepsi - Your insistence on the notion of 'discretion' when breastfeeding is equally offensive. I'm pretty sure most new mothers don't really want to flash their breasts in public - most of them are probably embarrassed by exposing what they wouldn't normally. So why subject them to further shame by tut-tutting and making statements like "I cant stand the sight of someone else's swollen, cracked and dark brown nipple"?
I feel quite flattered that you think I have a prudish attitude, I have never been called a prude before in my life.
Well then, allow me to be the first to flatter you thusly.
its about knowing what you will be exposed to when you go to a place and if you don’t want to be exposed to that, you have a choice not to go to that place.
Well Pepsi, life isn't so predictable and easy to manage to ensure your delicate sensibilities are not offended. Learn to deal with the odd unexpected breast.
I don’t see there being a right or wrong in this instance, and if you think there is you are an idiot.
Indeed, but public opinions and laws don't change in a feel-good vacuum, and these are the sorts of debates that people need to engage in if laws and attitudes are to change for the better.
I know I'm just not helping anyone to disagree with Puss and Pepsi, but I see their point and if it is only about discretion than I can certainly handle that.
Thanks Witchie. That's really all I was trying to say.
Boogie, I'd give you a big fat sloppy kiss if we were in the same city.
I dont think I would ever like the sight of someone else's swollen, cracked and dark brown nipple. Whats wrong with saying that, its how I feel?
If the poor sensitive woman attached to the nipple doesnt like it then they can ensure their delicate sensibilities are not offended by such observations by putting the nipple away and using a bottle.
Boogie, I'd give you a big fat sloppy kiss if we were in the same city.
Perseus, take note. This is how civilised people end arguments, not by attempting a half nelson in a jelly pit while Desci and EMS throw popcorn from the nosebleed seats.
Dear Witchone.
*sigh* Pepsi, shut up.
Thats nice, I prefer Squibs sledge.
You are obviously clueless
Why?
but they don't have to be swollen and cracked, and generally aren't after the first couple of days.
In your opinion and experience.
Stay out of maternity wards.
I dont go there.
Stay away from your friends homes if a baby has just arrived.
I dont go there.
Or, if you don't frequent the places mentioned above you have obviously never seen an actual nipple about to be placed in a baby's mouth
Isnt that the whole point of the discussion, if it was only occuring at those places mention then the issue would be moot, and it doesnt hence it isnt.
no fucking idea what you're talking about and are arguing for the sake of it.
Just because in your experience it hasnt happened, doesnt mean it hasnt happened more than frequently to someone else. Please open your mind to other peoples views and experiences, it might make you a better person.
In your view and experience, what I've seen on numerous occasions has never happened, therefore its never happened, and I am scaremongering rather than sharing my considered opinion based on actual experience.
That really truly is making me laugh.
I'm not going to send you a big sloppy kiss, you seemed to be wound up tighter than a teeny tiny little spring, so I think you'd probably benefit more from a stiff drink so I send a virtual one your way.
I dont think I would ever like the sight of someone else's swollen, cracked and dark brown nipple. Whats wrong with saying that, its how I feel?
If the poor sensitive woman attached to the nipple doesnt like it then they can ensure their delicate sensibilities are not offended by such observations by putting the nipple away and using a bottle.
Ok, even I think that's going too far. Can everyone please note my opinion is not in line with Pepsi's? My whole point was about discretion, not about the appearance of the nipples of breast feeding women.
And as to the people who have repeatedly mentioned the Jack Marx article - yes, I read that too, and that's why I said I would never ask a woman to cover up, and that I recognise my offence to the situation is my own fault, and that's why I would move away instead. I understand Marx's theory, but I still think there is an element of subconcious to being offended by something. Particularly with respect to how you were brought up and what not. For example, I know there are areas of PNG where it's appropriate for grown men to have sex with girls under the age of 16. If a man asked a mother in PNG for her 12 year old daughter to be allowed to sleep with him, she probably wouldn't be offended. Do the same thing in Australia, and I bet she would be. Societal norms are taught to us from an early age, and some are learned later on. A lot of things we deem "offensive" come from such norms.
Sorry, instead of saying putting the nipple away and getting the bottle out, I should of said, stop flashing it about and do it more discretely, yes?
I was a little annoyed at the arrogance of WitchOne at the time. See I dont take to kindly to someone who calls me clueless just because what I see, experience and believe is different to their.
Who is Jack Marx?
For example, I know there are areas of PNG where it's appropriate for grown men to have sex with girls under the age of 16. If a man asked a mother in PNG for her 12 year old daughter to be allowed to sleep with him, she probably wouldn't be offended. Do the same thing in Australia, and I bet she would be. Societal norms are taught to us from an early age, and some are learned later on. A lot of things we deem "offensive" come from such norms.
When differences between cultures exist, there's no reason not to examine both and see if there are sound reasons why one's practices are more enlightened and humane than the other.
For the example above, I'd definitely say the western model of age-limits on sex is to be preferred, for many physical, emotional and psychological developmental reasons.
Interestingly, I read a news articles recently* to the effect that in the Middle East, after a few recent controversies involving a 10 or 12 year old having to divorce their abusive husbands, that they were re-examining the wisdom of the standing cultural laws permitting children so young to marry older men.
So just because it's the done thing in any culture is no reason for anyone not to continually critique those practices.
* sorry, I really couldn't be less vague and unspecific with the details if I tried, right?
I'm confused Boogey. You seem to be responding to something other than what I wrote?
I said offence could be the product of societal norms, and then you said we should continue to critique cultural practices.
It's possible that it's Friday, and I'm brain dead, but I can't see how it relates?
Societal norms, cultural practices - same-same. They each give rise to the other.
I realise a lot of offence and opinion is derived from one's culture and upbringing, but that doesn't mean we should excuse every difference as 'they do things differently because that's the way they were raised', which appeared to be what you were saying.
No, no, no, that's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that I didn't agree with Jack Marx's piece entirely that offence has to be taken, and can't be on a subconcious level at all. My point was that because I was brought up believing breast feeding should be done discretely, when it's not, I am slightly offended and feel uncomfortable. I used the example of sex with underage children as an example. A mother in PNG might not be offended by such a question, but a mother in Australia would be. It's the societal norm that has caused the mother in Australia to feel offended by such a question.
Or does that not make sense?
For the record, the age of consent here is the same as Australia, 16.
Unfortunately most of the girls having sex well under that age are being raped by their fathers. Strange, but it's most common in East New Britain, who are supposed to be the most "civilised" people in the country. People joke about Rabaul being the incest capital of PNG.
Puss, you're probably talking about remote villages in the highlands where anything's possible. They still give girls away to resolve tribal disputes.
I am gobsmacked that such conservatism is still ripe.
I breastfed all my kids in public, sometimes I even had the WHOLE boob out.
Sometimes even TWO BOOBS when I was feeding twins. If anyone cared to look, which no-one ever seemed to, they could have copped a complete eyeful of my nipples as well. And I could not give a shit if anyone ws offended. Pepsi, you must have spent a good deal ogling breastfeeding norks to be able to comment on the state of the nipples.
When we're hungry, we eat food - if someone doesn't like the sight of us eating we don't tuck our selves away.
Perseus, take note. This is how civilised people end arguments, not by attempting a half nelson in a jelly pit while Desci and EMS throw popcorn from the nosebleed seats.
Pfft. As if I'd give my popcorn away like that.
There is no scientific proof that a baby requires a milk feed after the age of 1.
As I mentioned earlier, I believe the world health organisation recommends breastfeeding to three years. It isn't 'required' but the consensus seems to be that it is best for the child to breastfeed well beyond age 1. My belief is that it will be apparent when the baby is ready to stop, in my son's case it was 16 months.
I understand and appreciate the concept of children, but I don’t particularly like them. I make an effort to go out of my way to avoid the places they tend to be, and if I am in ‘their world’ I put up. I expect the same consideration and courtesy from the children and the people that manage these children when they happen to wander into the places I go.
It's one world Pepsi, we all share it. This reminds me of when I was working in a restaurant with some lesbians years ago, my husband arrived to pick me up from work and they were all 'oh a man, eewww, get him out of here'. At the time I thought 'how are they going to get around in life hating men when 50% of the population are male?' and I think you will have a similarly difficult time avoiding children and breastfeeding mothers but good luck with it.
Your attitude does mature dramatically once you have had your own kids and realise what an absolute joy they are. I'm so glad I didn't miss out on the fun of motherhood.
Ideally, all women would have their breasts out all of the time.
Since that's unlikely to happen in my lifetime, I'll settle for WitchOne, Pepsi, Squib, Patch, Kitten, EMS, Melba, Puss and Leilani getting their gear off in an all-in mud-wrestling scenario.
Did I just say that out loud?
Go on, you know you want to.
"I'll settle for WitchOne, Pepsi, Squib, Patch, Kitten, EMS, Melba, Puss and Leilani getting their gear off in an all-in mud-wrestling scenario."
...and Desci!
And Aesophia, wherever she is.
I think I'm a bit past the age when anyone would be interested in seeing me mud wrestle naked. I appreciate the thought though.
... Puss would have little stars over [her] nipples for modesty.
Unless we were behind closed doors and people were paying money. Or giving me designer handbags in lieu.
I don't have DD's any more, they shrank when the milk ran out and so are far less exciting than they used to be.
Were they DDs before you gave birth, or just during and after? Mine keep growing for some reason (no, I'm not pregnant), and I'm sick of them. I'm looking at getting a breast reduction, but I don't know any good doctors in Brisbane/Gold Coast. I only know of people who have gotten implants, not reductions, so I don't have any recommendations.
I've heard of women's breasts reducing after children, but I suppose a $5,000 - $10,000 breast reduction is still cheaper than a child to age 18!
Pepsi and Puss would have little stars over their nipples for modesty.
EMS on the other hand... WHOA baby!! (sorry did I just get all excited about EMS??)
Of course you did. You're only human.
I'll settle for WitchOne, Pepsi, Squib, Patch, Kitten, EMS, Melba, Puss and Leilani getting their gear off in an all-in mud-wrestling scenario.
You first.
No offence EMS, but you always struck me as everybody's lovably daggy kid sister.
I was just thinking today that the "breast is best" message being shoved down womens throats these days seems to have resulted in a generation of obese, asthmatic and allergic children. Why are kids so much fatter and sicker now than kids 30 years ago who were raised on formula?
It reminds me of the "eating fat is bad" message that has also resulted in over half the population becoming obese and diabetic in the last 20 years.
I was just thinking today
Maybe you should try cutting down on that. Maybe take up dribbling instead.
No offence EMS, but you always struck me as everybody's lovably daggy kid sister.
None taken. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there, Ramon.
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