Tuesday, May 25, 2010

Pompous Rockstar Twit


Pre-pompous era Costello.

It is rare that I ever agree with a right-wing politician, but I have to agree with this Israeli, in response to Elvis Costello being a blouse and cancelling his Tel Aviv concert - a lame, lame-o act of protest:

Culture Minister Limor Livnat, a member of the ruling, right-wing Likud Party, said that ''an artist who boycotts his Israeli fan base is not worthy of performing in front of them''.

For fuck's sake Mr. Costello, do you think cancelling a concert has any positive ramifications for Israel-Palestinian conflict at all? Will it stop Jewish settlements stupidly expanding in Palestinian held territories? Will it have influence over Hamas's charter to kill Jews and destroy Israel? No, and no.

You idiot, Elvis. You make your namesake (who used to shoot his TV when he got disgruntled with a TV show) seem postively level-headed.

Snoop Dogg also cancelled his Israeli concerts. I bet there was weeping in the streets of Jerusalem over that.

Of more concern that some pompous four-eyed musician cancelling a concert is my own Government expelling an Israeli diplomat over some forged passports.

I've been a Rudd apologist thus far. I've let him get away with insulation debacles, boring corporate-speak speeches and earwax consumption, but this time, I'm prepared to call him and his crony Stephen Smith a couple of geese for expelling the diplomat.

So some Mossad agents sneaked into Dubai to whack a genocidal psychopath? Good. So they used some forged Australian passports? Big whoop. I'm more than happy to lend them mine if they rid the world of psychos like that Hamas maniac.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a total Israel apologist. They should get the fuck out of Gaza and West Bank. They should get their extreme right 'God promised us this land so it's ours' religious psychos and slap them in the face, and deprive them of input to any political debate. They should go to great lengths to make Arabs living in Israel feel like they are part of a nation, with equal rights and voice.

But conversely, they should not, ever, do anything to support an organisation that exists predominantly in order to kill Jews. Namely, Hamas.

I;ve said it before and I say it again. Israel is a nation, and as such, has a right to protect itself, just as we do. And if New Zealand were lobbing bombs at us, and it was in their constitution to kill us, I'd want my Government to fuck them up.

No doubt in that scenario, if we did retaliate, Elvis Costello would cancel his Melbourne and Sydney concert dates.

Has he had a hit song since the early 80's anyway?

Hey Elvis... I'll take your act of protest seriously when you ban sales of your albums in both Israel AND Iran.

**

PS: I was in an Elvis Costello film clip when I was a teenager!

78 comments:

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

I was thinking of posting something about this, but I'm glad you got in first Pers.

I'm with you about Elvis - what a pompous knob end - but I think The Federal Government did the right thing about booting out the Mossad bod.

Dicking around with a country's passports is a pretty serious offence, especially when it's a country like Australia which is a good friend of Israel and it's right to exist.

ToneMasterTone said...

I disagree on this call.

If I knew a friend of mine was a serial rapist, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him, and I'd tell him why.

I doubt it would change his behaviour, but I would feel queasy having anything to do with him, despite what good times we might have shared, because I would find the behaviour so abominable.

And why is dicking around with a passport a serious offence?

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Because a passport is a legal document, issued by the national government, allowing its citizens to travel ("without hindrance", as the phrase in the Australian passport has it) between countries.

It is, in effect, a guarantee by the government that you are who you say you are.

Perseus said...

TmT: Are you referring to Israel as the 'serial rapist' friend? For fuck's sake, they are a democratic and secular nation-state, and I'm proud to have them as a friend. They have not become serial rapists, we caught them shoplifting a Mars Bar.

Expelling a diplomat is a punishment that far outweights the crime in my mind.

UAE have every right to expel diplomats and get narky at them for committing a murder in their country, but the rest of us need to chill a bit, I reckon.

A stern rebuke should have sufficed.

Alex said...

I;ve said it before and I say it again. Israel is a nation, and as such, has a right to protect itself, just as we do. And if New Zealand were lobbing bombs at us, and it was in their constitution to kill us, I'd want my Government to fuck them up.

Wouldn't it be a better analogy to say: If a large group of militant aborigines began attacking predominantly non-aboriginal areas; claiming that they did not recognise the validity of the Australian government and that the continent should be returned to indigenous rule?

Also, I don't think I'd be too happy if my passport was used by any government to assassinate somebody. You can have that one all to yourself.

Also, I don't know who Elvis Costello is.

Perseus said...

Wouldn't it be a better analogy to say:

No, because the Aborigines were here before us. Like, 50,000 years before us. And Aborigines don't have a self-governed state that has a constitution expressly declaring that white Australians should be killed.

Arabs were not there before Jews. Nor were Jews there before Arabs, really (though Jews existed before Muslims).

They are pretty much the same people. Just different tribes, split 2500-3000 years ago by religion.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Also, I don't know who Elvis Costello is.

Alex!!!

Hamas believes in the destruction of Israel and the violent slaughter of every Jew they can find.

Puss In Boots said...

I'm with Pers on this one (surprise, surprise).

Completely OT - Ramon, I have found a shirt for you to go with the owl sandles.

ToneMasterTone said...

> they are a democratic and secular nation-state

Just because a state is democratic and (reasonably) secular doesn't mean it ain't a nasty government. And just because a government is a dictatorship doesn't mean it ain't a good one.

Athenian foreign policy was a nasty piece of work in Periclean times, while Charlemagne was quite the dude.

And if I was a world-famous singer, I would almost definitely play in Israel. Notwithstanding that, I can understand why people wouldn't want to.

Forging a passport I still consider hardly a misdemeanour.

Pepsi said...

Didn't the Emperor Hadrian kick out the Jews long before WW2 peace treaties kicked out the Muslims, ie Palestinians????

Also didnt marauding Arabs tribes takeover lots of non-Arab type countries like Judea, in the years when maraunding invaders or tribes where constantly taking over places, ie Romans, Visigoths, Byzantians, Persians etc

I never understood why they just dont split it down the middle (half Israel & half Palestine) & keep "Jerusalem" as an independent state (because the top 3 religions all want it as a holy place), but thats too simple, cause they both want it all.

I think the Israeli's are lucky, Elvis Costello is way past his best and they'd only miss out on a snoozed up jazzy style yawnfest of a gig made up of faded moments of glory & futile attempts at recapturing his cred (didnt Snoopy Dog dude use this an excuse to cancel to hide the lack of sales, me thinks Mr Costello is probably on that bandwagon too).

Alex, you made me laugh.

Perseus said...

Before Isreal was created, Jews also had to pay a Jew Tax to live there. You know, on top of every other normal tax.

Alex said...

I'm glad I brought a smile to your day, Pepsi.

Perseus, I know my analogy isn't perfect, but yours doesn't even depict two groups who have a history of territorial conflict. Also, does it matter that the Aboriginal people have been here for 50 000 years? I mean, no matter how genuine their grievances are; I don't see how the non-aboriginal populace of Australia could leave or relinquish their political rights any more than the people of Israel could. And anyone can draw up a constitution and declare themselves an independent state.

Alex said...

Also, is it very wrong that part of me wants to think that Elvis Costello might be the brother of Peter and Tim?

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Alex, the area known as Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire until it was captured by the British in 1917.

The League of Nations mandated the British to govern the area until a long term solution could be found.

During this period, clashes between (some) Palestinian groups and (some) Jewish groups grew worse, with massacres on both sides.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, the UN decided in 1947to split the region into two states; one Jewish and one Palestinian.

The Jews accepted this, the surrounding Arab states didn't.

The Arab states decied to invade when the Jewish state (now known as Israel) declared its independence and were done like a dinner.

Hope this helps.

Jamie said...

Pers, like Ramon said, you can't mess with the passports of another sovereign nation and expect to get away with it Scot free.

You're dead right about Elvis Costello though, Pers, even if Veronica was a hit in 1989, before he started mimicking Bacharach toons. As if his blowing off a single concert in Tel Aviv would change a thing. But a meaningful international effort helped free Seth Efrica of apartheid. Maybe it can stop Israel from kicking the crap out of its neighbours, and vice versa.

Jamie said...

PS: who's ever noticed the glaring grammatical error in Oliver's Army? I can't forgive him for that alone.

catlick said...

Elvis Costello was at the vanguard of an era that allowed for less visually attractive "pop" stars.

He writes extended jingles and has surfed his talent way up the beach.

Diplomacy is heavily nuanced and we aren't booting out all diplomats or expelling the ambassador, just this one who will be replaced.

The heavy coverage of this action in the Arabic press shows that it has made a point.

Alex said...

..and factions within the Arab nations have been attacking Israel and Israel has been encroaching on non-Israeli territory ever since, right?

Thanks Ramon, I have a rudimentary understanding, but I'm certainly no history buff. The point I was making was that whether or not you agree with the circumstances by which Israel was formed, it's there now, and it would be unreasonable to expect it to go away. I imagine that if any progress is going to be made, the arguments over historic ownership are going to have to be put aside and a more pragmatic approach taken.

Of course, I don't think this passport thing is really about whether Israel should exist or not. It's about what countries should and shouldn't be doing in the name of security.

RandomGit said...

I think we have to take this stance on the passport issue because of events that will probably transpire off the following template:

HAMAS person: People using Australian Passports assassinated one of our leaders in his sleep.

HAMAS: Kill all Australian Passport holders.

etc etc.

Those responsible have added an extra bullseye over Australian Citizens operating in that area. Our government cannot just speak harshly yet tolerate this.

catlick said...

HAMAS: Kill all Australian Passport holders.

This line must be delivered in an Arabic Dalek voice.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

This line must be delivered in an Arabic Dalek voice.

Which rather reminds me of that episode of Doctor Who where the Daleks were speaking German.

As if they weren't terrifying enough!

Melba said...

I was just thinking yesterday that Elvis had aged well and instead of looking like the geek he was, is now looking a bit spunky. Now that's scary, and I'm not quite sure why.

And the other thing I wanted to say was:

Perseus, I was wondering when your personal rant-obsession would come up again, it's been a little while. Do you and Ramon have a roster or something? It's like tag-team ragging.

Ramon: It's time I wrote a post on idiotic woo-woo merchants. It's been, oh, about 22 days since the last. I'm getting behind.

Perseus: No, it's my turn. I have to do one of my Israel/Palestine bits. Cause it's 24 days since I did my last one. Let me go first.

Ramon: OK, but you have to let me then follow up with homeopaths. They're overdue for a serve, according to my schedule.

Perseus: OK. Cup of tea?

Ramon: Er.

Melba said...

And I agree with Tone re Costello cancelling his gig, and I agree with Ramon about the passports.

Boogeyman said...

Perseus, this passport incident is the diplomatic equivalent of beating some guy to within an inch of his life, then dropping your mate's licence, which you swiped off him earlier, beside the body so he takes the rap.

If it wasn't a big deal, why didn't Israel issue Israeli passports, rather than engaging in forgery with the purpose of shifting blame to an allied nation?

Also, regarding this...

So some Mossad agents sneaked into Dubai to whack a genocidal psychopath? Good. So they used some forged Australian passports? Big whoop.

The eyes are open, the lips are moving, but Mr Perspicacious has long since vacated the property for Mr Andrew-Bolt-Wannabe, hasn't he?

Boogeyman said...

Also, where do you get off insulting Jarvis Cocker's dad? You'll have an army of bespectacled straggly-bearded hipsters after you the way you're going.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

It's time I wrote a post on idiotic woo-woo merchants.

Ooh, thanks for reminding me Melba.

Dr. Golf said...

First Chelsea now Israel.

Sorry.

squib said...

Pers, so in that video, are you in the palm tree or wot?

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Nice one, Dr G.

Perseus said...

Squib: I was in the filmclip for 'I Wanna Be Loved' which I found here: http://www.videocure.com/video/36806.html

I'm leaning against a pole at the 4:40 - 4:50 mark.

Melba: Mofre than a year since my last Israel posting, but who's counting? Ramon is right, you should have reminded us earlier. Equally predictable is your refusal to give Israel one iota of support on anything. If Elvis Costello boycotted Palestine instead of Israel, would you support that too? I thought my argument (for once) was balanced.

As Jamie noted, there's a 'vice-versa'.

Boogeyman: I am learning not to take your bait. Proud of me?

squib said...

Pffff that could be anyone. That could be me. That could be half of Melbourne

Perseus said...

True, Squib, but it is actually me. I know that, because I was there at the time. They did about five takes, and told me not to move, much, and to not look at Elvis as he ran past.

squib said...

Well alright, I believe you but only this once

Lewd Bob said...

Perseus, was that Daffy standing next to you?

Joseph Q said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Perseus said...

Jesus Christ Bob, that's uncanny.

Yes is the answer.

Michelle Hyphenated-Surname and K. Cucumber were also there, but had wandered off to the toilets and missed a take, and that was the one they went with.,

Perseus said...

Hang on... no, Bob.
Daffy is the one standing to my right, not against the pole. You can see him turn and watch Elvis run away.

Melba said...

Ah, but you took my bait, Perseus, didn't you?

And no, you weren't balanced. You aren't about all these things that push your buttons.

We've done this over and over, old chap, and I haven't the energy for it again. I know there's a huge stream about it somewhere on my blog where we thrashed it out and got nothing out of it other than a hand shake at the end? Or a kiss on the cheek?

I was in a film clip once too, but you know that already. Was yours shown on Night Moves???

Lewd Bob said...

I could tell by the hairstyles that it was the Daffy era.

Perseus said...

I was so balanced. I'm normally all "Israel is awesome and everyone else is a dickhead", but at least this time I called expanded settlements 'stupid' and derided the influence of fundamental Judaism on local politics.

It's probably why I;ve gone quiet in the recent year. I am not a fan of Netting Yahoo at all.

Melba said...

Wow I can think of a lot more apt adjectives than "stupid" for the "expanded settlements."

And even "expanded settlements" is so euphemistic.

What you want a medal for being balanced when you are a teensy bit critical (but not really) of Israel?

And I'd like to know how fundo Judaism influences local politics? Your statement makes it sound like they are kinda, like, er, separate?

Perseus said...

Point being, you consistently paint Israel as one big fascist machine.

It's a secular nation-state, filled with Jews, Muslims, Christians and atheists. It holds democratic, proportional-representation elections.

It constitutionally divides state, judiciary and church, unlike the corrupt fascist-states you throw your support behind.

The fundamental right of Israel shits me up the wall, and I wish the government of Israel would stop pandering to them.

I'm prepared to say that, melba, but I have never heard you say one ill word about Palestine, which is amongst the most corrupt place on Earth, run by vile racists (Hamas) who want to slaughter Jews.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Actually Hamas is in control of the Gaza Strip.

Fatah is in control of the West Bank.

The two groups hate each other almost as much as they hate the Israelis

Melba said...

That's because we've always been arguing about how Israel is democratic and trying to do the right thing (your argument), and I've energetically pointed out what I see are the faults with that position.

We haven't argued about Palestinians being ace, or Hamas being fab or anything like that. You've brought them into the arguments, but the reason I always get involved is when you say oh Israel is ok, and that anyone who criticises Israel is akin to a Jew hater. That is always the starting point when we argue about this.

I haven't argued for the greatness of Hamas, or bombers, or Arabs, or Palestinians because that's never been the point of contention. For me. You think because I'm critical of Israel I must automatically be on "the other side." And that's your mistake.

I have made statements that I see Palestinians (citizens and as a people) as oppressed, and that I see Israel as a bully boy. You are creating some fanciful notions that I am pro Hamas or something like that. I have never said anything like that.

Read back over everything that we've ever said. You won't find it. You won't find me saying anything other than what I've just reiterated above.

I think you just see red. You don't see reason. And the proof is the way you always clutch on to some sort of binary position on this topic.

Perseus said...

Ramon: Fatah also has the President, and as such, Fatah has the seat at the negotiation table with Israel, but you must concede, it's a bit of a waste, being that Fatah has little to no influence. Gaza has the trade ports etc. Your point that they hate each other is one reason why I have little faith in conflict resolution.

Israel has almost 2 million Arabs living in Israel itself. I've often wondered why they haven't bent over backwards to help them prosper... it would filter through to Gaza and West Bank, surely.

Melba: Some people who are anti-Israel are hiding their inner Jew hater. You are not like that, i concede, but some are. They're the ones I should go at.

Melba said...

Well thanks for that Perseus. You almost went there, and I'm glad you didn't. Means we can still have drink beer again some time.

Lemons!

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Lemons!

You rang?

Melba said...

Drank some limoncello last night. It's really quite nice.

Is it lemon season? Aren't they best in winter? Or the cold weather.

Might try preserved lemons next. The limoncello was too time consuming for a disappointing result. I don't think it works properly without the pure alcohol.

How many you got, Ramon?

Alex said...

It sort of surprises me that you would have a particular desire to defend Jews, Perseus; seeing as how you normally seem to have nothing but derision for people with religious beliefs.

Perseus said...

I don't defend Judaism, Alex.

I defend Israelis as a whole (many of whom happen to be Jewish).

But I also have Jewish blood in me. So when people say, "Those Jews are all this and that..." I think of my grandfather, who was not anything like they say. He was however a handy rover, and a master bricklayer.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

How many you got, Ramon?

Rather a lot, as it turns out Melbs.

Melba said...

So about 200 for moi, and 4 for Perseus?

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

As a good socialist, I think I should split it 50-50.

Alex said...

Perseus, while I find that terms like black, white, asian, etc. can be a useful way to describe a person's general appearance, the idea of trying to divide people into 'races' (and thus, the idea of racism) has always frustrated me immensely. What do you mean when you say you have Jewish blood? Just that your granddad practised Judaism, or something else?

Puss In Boots said...

Are you serious, Alex? So you would get frustrated if someone described themselves as being of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent? Or of German descent?

As I understand it, being Jewish is about a lot more than just the religion. Granted, that is an extremely large part, but it is definitely more of a way of life, and is about family, and community, and what not. Trying to describe a Jewish person in any other term would be like trying to describe an Amish person without referring to that particular word. Sure, the basis of their life is from a strict following of the Mennonite religion, but it's become about so much more than that.

Alex said...

Puss, I get frustrated trying to understand how those descriptions equate to an inherent property of 'race'. Germany is a geographical region that is home to many different types of people, none of which presumably originated there. So if a person told me they were of German descent, it would tell me very little about them, other than that they had ancestors that at some point spent some time living in that part of the world.

And sure, many religious groups have customs and traditions that they adhere to, but presumably those beliefs, customs and traditions can be adopted by outsiders who join the group or renounced by those who leave the group. Again, I don't see how this defines an inherent racial aspect in a person. If a person became Jewish and then many years later, renounced Judaism, would they retain some residual 'Jewish blood' that could be passed on to their offspring?

Also, I have known a number of people who can trace a majority of their ancestry to European settlers, but describe themselves as Aboriginal because they feel it is representative of their customs, beliefs, and the way they were raised, not because it is a term that best describes any measurable physical quality about themselves.

I don't know if I'm getting my point across here particularly well, but do you see where I'm coming from?

Perseus said...

Alex, one would need to write a 10,000 page book on 'what is Jewishness?' to get at an answer, so don't get stressed about it.

I can talk of my grandfather though. Many Jews were booted out of Britain in the mid 1800's. Some turned up in eastern suburban Melbourne (which wasn't yet suburban), cleared the land, planted orchards and founded footy clubs. My great-grandfather was one of those Jews, and with his wife, they had my grandfather (born 1900).

My grandfather was therefore a Jew, and an atheist, who married a protestant and they had my Mum (which makes me not a Jew).

Not one skerrick of Jewishness (culture, religion, cuisine or the using of the term, "Get outta here!") reached even Mum's generation.

I'm a Skip... which is a term as wide and varied in many ways as "I'm Jewish".

But, when one's grandfather is Jewish, one, I suppose, notes it.

Alex said...

I appreciate the effort Perseus, I really do. But I don't think it straightens much out for me. Thanks anyway.

Perseus said...

I don't get whay you're asking.

"What is a Jew?" One of the descendants of the original 12tribes of Israel, I guess.

I think it was 12.

It doesn't technically get more complex than that, though, within those millions of descendants there's all sorts of people, but they are all Jewish.

Natalie Portman is one of the better looking ones.

Boogeyman said...

Boogeyman: I am learning not to take your bait. Proud of me?

Now, where's the fun in that?

You still didn't answer my question about why you're beating up on Jarvis Cocker's dad.

Also, saying you have 'Jewish blood' when you care nothing for the heart and soul of their culture - their religion - is rather an empty conceit, don't you think?

If all it takes to co-opt a cultural heritage is a little bit of genetic material, then by gum I must be a full Pictish warlord coming to rain blue eye-shadowed Celtic fury all over any Latin-speaking dago in a leather mini-skirt.

Perseus said...

Jewish blood. That's all I'm claiming.

Pepsi said...

Are you claiming some of your DNA has been characterised a specific way by the religious beliefs of some of your ancestors??

Puss In Boots said...

That's an interesting question, Pepsi. Can't they tell from blood tests where your ancestors are from, to a certain degree? I'm sure someone just did some tests showing Pauline Hanson had muslim ancestors somewhere along the line, and I know my mother has been tested and was shown to come from Jewish ancestors (from Prussia, incidentally). How are they able to tell if such "religious beliefs" have not had an effect on the genetic material?

I suspect it's more that those cultures tend to only interbreed amongst themselves, and thus have evolved certain genetic indicators which may be lacking in other groups of people.

Alex said...

"What is a Jew?" One of the descendants of the original 12tribes of Israel, I guess. [...] It doesn't technically get more complex than that, though, within those millions of descendants there's all sorts of people, but they are all Jewish.

Everyone who has a single Israeli tribesman somewhere in their ancestry is Jewish? That probably means that thousands of people who identify as Jew hating Muslim Arabs are probably Jews. That doesn't really seem right to me, Perseus.

And Puss, cultural groups may inbreed, which creates certain genetic identifiers, but I still don't see how that translates to the idea that cultural elements can be biologically carried or passed on. I mean, I could convert to Judaism today. Would that make me part of a Jewish 'race'? Would that make my offspring Jewish? Would their offspring be of 'Jewish decent'?

Puss In Boots said...

No Alex, I don't think it would. I think it would make you an Australian practicing Judaism. As I said before, there's a big difference between practicing Judaism and being Jewish.

Puss In Boots said...

In support of my comment above, you could practice Russian Orthodoxy, and not be Russian. Or follow the teachings of the American Indians and not be of American Indian descent. Or believe in the dreamtime and not be of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent. Etc. Merely practicing Judaism is not what makes someone Jewish.

Alex said...

That's what I'm saying, Puss. I don't see how a person's customs, beliefs or traditions, or that of their ancestors, can create an inherent physical characteristic of 'race' that can be passed on to their offspring. So, what does?

In order to be Russian, I wouldn't think you'd need much more than a link to the mass of land known as Russia. Just like being Australian.

Also, in the case of the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines, you have a number of separate cultural groups that have different languages, customs, beliefs and due to geographical separation, physical characteristics. Does this constitute separate 'races'? If not, why not? I don't see how it could be a simple case of shared ancestry, because that logic would eventually have you roll every group into the same 'race'.

Perseus said...

Alex: I never said I was a Jew. I'm not a Jew. It stopped with my grandfather. Technically, Jewishness is supposed to come down the maternal line, but I guess it helps if one also carries Jewish culture as well.

So, that supports what you are saying, but the fact my grandfather was one just means I have an awareness of Jewishness in the family, without actually being Jewish. Just like if a grandmother was Nigerian or something.

It's just a family story.

I'm glad those Welsh Jews came to Melbourne in the mid 1800s instead of German (frinstance).

Puss In Boots said...

I don't see how a person's customs, beliefs or traditions, or that of their ancestors, can create an inherent physical characteristic of 'race' that can be passed on to their offspring.

In the same way you are frustrated by this concept, I'm frustrated that you can't seem to understand a Jewish (or Aboriginal, or whatever) person belongs to a separate group of people, based not only on religion, but also customs and traditions, and ancestry.

So I think I will stop now, before my head implodes. That's not a reflection on you, though. It's just that I can't explain myself to your satisfaction.

Alex said...

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to pick on you or your family, Perseus. That wasn't my intent.

But even the whole idea of Jewishness being passed down from the mother and not the father, makes the idea of heritability sound a bit like dogmatic superstition, doesn't it?

Puss, I understand that people have cultural identify; what I can't understand is how that identity translates to an inherent quality of 'race' that can be passed on to descendants that never share or even recognise that cultural identity.

But fine, I'll stop here.

Puss In Boots said...

I would like to have a go at explaining the clans/tribes within Aboriginal custom, though. I'm fairly certain they didn't have surnames back in the day, and would have been "[name] of the Kunja tribe" (for instance). Which is the same as saying I am Puss of the In Boots tribe. So the separate tribes within a culture don't necessarily mean there isn't a larger culture/ancestry/race to which someone belongs.

I guess I don't understand how you can't understand that being Jewish is a separate race, and I don't think it's something you can explain in such a way that I will understand it. That's the only reason I'm quitting. I think we'll just end up going in circles.

Mr E Discharge said...

There have been internationally published, peer reviewed studies by leading Israeli academics of Mitochrondrial DNA in populations throughout the Middle East that show, with 98+ percent certainty that Palestinians and non-diaspora Jews are genetically identical. The is no DNA evidence for a "Jewish Race" at all. Likewise, no DNA evidence exists to support the presence of a Captive Jewish Population in Egypt or Babylon at any time. Most of the narrative which forms the basis for Israeli claims of their "God-given Right" to occupy the "Holy Land" has been debunked by the Israelis themselves.

Puss In Boots said...

But is there a genetic difference between Jewish people and say, those with English roots, Mr E?

Mr E Discharge said...

But is there a genetic difference between Jewish people and say, those with English roots, Mr E?

Puss,
Not in terms of "race". The really interesting outcome of the recent DNA research is that there really is no evidence for the concept of race at all. MtDNA can establish that an individual decends from a particular people in a particular region at a parrticular time, but that's about all. Ther is only one race, "Human" the differences between peoples is purely an adaption to local conditions over long periods of time.

Puss In Boots said...

MtDNA can establish that an individual decends from a particular people in a particular region at a parrticular time, but that's about all. Ther is only one race, "Human" the differences between peoples is purely an adaption to local conditions over long periods of time.

Well, that's precisely my idea of what "race" is. A particular people from a particular region, who have adapted to local conditions over long periods of time to form a subset of "human" slightly different to another subset of "human." What else would "race" be?

eat my shorts said...

"Race" is a social construct, just like "femininity" or "masculinity". The only meaning any of these words have is what humans apply to them.

When I was teaching Sociology, I found this documentary. Have a look at the info sheet here as well.

Alex said...

Cheers for pointing me toward that doco, EMS. Despite being a little simplistic and completely U.S. centric, I thought it wasn't too bad. I gave it extra marks for the inclusion of clips from 'Once Upon A Honeymoon' in part 3, too.

eat my shorts said...

No probs, Alex. It's definitely simplistic (that's why I use it to introduce the idea of race as a social construct to the kids), and abso-fricken-lutely US-centric. I let them know about that beforehand, and afterwards, we discuss the Australian context - which I would do whether it was in the curriculum or not (it is).