Thursday, January 29, 2009

Up The Arse With An Electric Carving Knife

Maybe I shouldn't buy a rifle, because if I owned one I might be tempted to kill this man.

Capital Punishment as a debate topic has never interested me. I was/am against it. I don't think it is the role of the state or the judiciary to condemn its own citizens to death under any circumstance. It is barbarism dressed up as law. I think the USA is cheapened by its capital punishment policy. It devalues a society; this whole concept of killing its own people, no matter how monstrous some of these people are.

It's not punishment. It's revenge. Governments are to govern, not to be the moral arbiters of life and death.

And yet, when I hear the occasional story of someone killing one of these same monsters - like this one - I think to myself, "Yeah, I get that."

I condone honour killing. I do not condone state-sanctioned killing.

Of course, the more level-headed amongst us (B-Man) will point out that my definition of honour is not everyone's, and whose honour system are we meant to employ when championing the cause of honour killing?

So the only answer is that the system we have is the best. No capital punishment, and all other murders to be judged on their merits, working on the basis that murder in the first place is an offence we as a society will not condone under any circumstance, no matter how honourable it is prima-facie.

Still... if the bloke from this morning who threw his daughter off a bridge and killed her happens to get fucked up the arse with an electric carving knife in the Remand Centre kitchen tonight, I for one will not urge retribution from the perpetrator.


catlick said...

The threat "if you lot don't stop fighting I'll stop the car....." has received some credibility.*

*This is an untimely and tasteless comment.

Mr E Discharge said...

"Honey, don't forget to drop the kids off!". **

**This is an another untimely and tasteless comment.

catlick said...

Westgate Toll continues.*

*Puerile attempt at humour.

BTW, just how many people have died falling/thrown/jumping from this bridge?

Fad MD said...

I have never before felt like throwing up when reading a news story, but I did at this. My daughter just turned 4 last month and I cannot even begin to fathom this.

58m is a long way to fall and wonder why Daddy did it...

patchouligirl said...

His name is strangely familiar - Arthur Phillip Freeman (oi oi oi). What a prick. It is unfathomable. Apparently there were two other kids in the car who presumably saw the whole thing.

Melba said...

Perseus, I think you should use another term, instead of "honour killing" which has already been taken by idiot men, mostly Muslim, to excuse the way they kill their women who have "brought dishonour upon the family name."

Maybe "if I don't kill him, I'm either going to kill myself or he will kill me" killing?

Leilani said...

This is such a tragic incident but clearly the guy is seriously ill. No rational human being would ever carry out such a horrible crime. I can't imagine that raping the guy is going to help with his mental illness nor will it bring back the daughter he just killed.

WitchOne said...

Nope Leilani, kill him. I often want to kill my kids but to actually carry such a desire out? Unthinkable!

Perseus said...

Leilani, there are many people who are seriously ill but they don't feel the need to throw four year old girls off bridges.

By this act, I feel he has forfeited his right to exist, or to have us 'understand' why (because nobody ever will, though there'll be psychiatrists and psychologists who'll make money out of trying).

No illness can explain what he did.

He is a zero. A nothing.

We have no need for him.

catlick said...

I understand disturbed people act on their feelings, but I'd prefer them to act out on themselves, not others. If all these vindictive "parents" [read fathers] killed themselves instead of their families we'd be having a different conversation. Give me an emo any day over an angry man who has decided that if he can't have it, then neither can that bitch [read wife].

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

I should point out this man is accused of murdering his daughter.

The facts will be tested before the courts.

People might like to keep this in mind.

Protracted legal actions are sooo tiresome.

catlick said...

Ramon at this stage the Committal Hearing would have to be held at the MCG to accommodate the potential defendants.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Good point, Catlick.

Anonymous said...

Statements like these do you no justice, PQ:

By this act, I feel he has forfeited his right to exist

He is a zero. A nothing.

We have no need for him.

You just finished saying you don't support capital punishment, then you say "he forfeited his right to live". Make up your mind where you stand.

A person's right to live or die is not determined by whether they serve you any purpose, or in fact whether you rate them at all.

If he is found guilty, he indeed deserves punishment. Indeed, he deserves to feel every inch of the guilt and anguish he has caused everyone else, which he won't feel if dead.

I should point out too that he has two surviving children who no doubt will grow up confused, scared and angry at the man who they will also presumably continue to love in some manner, being their father and all, and especially if it happens that he was not naturally an abusive asshole, but merely someone that snapped under strain. And while growing up they might wish upon him all the guilt he should rightfully feel, they likely would not wish him dead or violently raped in prison.

catlick said...

Suicide numbers on the West Gate Bridge are referred to here, no doubt with 100% accuracy. I was shocked!

Perseus said...

Catlick - I saw a woman do it about 5 years ago when I was driving over the bridge. I was about four cars back. Me and a few others pulled up, but, you know, she was gone. She had left her car running. I didn't look over. One of the others called the cops. I drove home.


Boogeyman, you're right, and I know you're right, and you know that I know you're right, but I don't care for right or wrong sometimes because I'm not a judge or a law-maker. I stand by my comment. I think it would be easier for his kids to grow up without him. I think society will be better off without him. No, I do NOT condone state-sponsored killing, but if he dies in some other way I just won't care.

I don't want him studied, I don't want him pampered, I don't even want the case reported any more. I don't want cameras in his face to show me what he looks like on TV.

I want him gone.

He's a zero.

Fad MD said...

A relative who used to work in the Coroner's Court had plenty of info on the West Gate suicides. Usually if they jumped off and "pencilled" into the water, they would get stuck in the mud and would't come up until they were sufficiently bloated.

The ones who "pancaked" in were usually in a couple of pieces, and those who mis-judged where the water started were a real mess.

Anonymous said...

Fad, what about the ones that bomb-dived, with arms around tucked-up knees?

Also, I thought that one of the dangers of 'pencilling' from a high height was water rushing up under pressure into the nose and causing brain damage.

Perseus, initial accounts suggest the man was a devoted father. How does someone like that snap to the point that they throw their child off a bridge? It doesn't appear to have been pre-meditated or planned. Angry posturing about offing the man does nothing to resolve that question. And it's a question I assure you we very much need to answer, because you don't want the same thing happening again.

Perseus said...

"How does someone like that snap to the point that they throw their child off a bridge?"

I don't care.

"it's a question I assure you we very much need to answer, because you don't want the same thing happening again."

Disagree, strongly. A) Because we'll never really know, no matter how hard the psych profession tries with him*, and B) Even if we do know, we'll never be able to stop it happening again because nobody would ever be able to predict who/where/when. It's a one in a billion thing, surely.

It's like Nietzsche's thing about the abstract plain which goes something like this - even if we can prove that there exists an abstract plain, all that we've proven is that there exists something we do not understand.

(* EG: He was unhappy with his Family Court results and he had debts and he hated his ex-wife and was addicted to prescription drugs... let's just say that is what we discover. It doesn't mean anything, because others in exactly the same position won't throw their children off a bridge.)

catlick said...

"because you don't want the same thing happening again."
Jeesus Boogey, every fucken month we hear of "loving" dads killing their children. The over-riding commonality is the active custodial dispute. These guys (in general) are extracting the ultimate vengeance with malice aforethought. We need to take the venom and bitterness and anger out of the separation and identify the "at risk" fathers.*

*Clearly the parameters need to include middle class loving fathers.

Perseus said...

Further to my *point... are you suggesting that any other man who is unhappy with his access visits (who has debts, addictions and dislike of the ex) must be automatically suspected of being capable of throwing their child off a bridge? No.

DHS aren't psychic.

Perseus said... what Catlick said.

Improve the system.

But for yesterday's guy: Fuck him up the arse with an electric carving knife.

catlick said...

"I saw a woman do it about 5 years ago when I was driving over the bridge. I was about four cars back."

Perseus if only you'd had your crowbar!

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

The Boy is about the same age as that little girl.

I feel ill just reading about it, imagine what it must be like for the cops and ambos who worked for nearly an hour to revive her - let alone the poor bastards who saw it happen in front of them.

Fad MD said...

Fad, what about the ones that bomb-dived, with arms around tucked-up knees?

I think that's where the term "busted-arse" comes from.

Melba said...

I think you have all missed what might be a valid point, if not the "reason" why this happened.

Consider the facts as we know them:

1. The girl was due to start school yesterday, in Prep.

2. This happened at 9.10am or thereabouts on the bridge, in traffic, in sweltering heat after a day of sweltering, insanity-inducing heat.

3. The kids were late for school. The girl going into Prep and presumably the older boy, 6yo.

As a parent, I read all these facts and wondered whether the girl was not screaming, upset, crying, having a tantrum, she was late for her first day of school! This, to an almost five-year-old is like the biggest tragedy.


But I think he snapped, it was likely manslaughter not murder, and while most parents don't snap to that magnitude, I for one can see how it might have happened.

I'm not going to paint the picture of his psyche, mental state etc at that time, who knows?

Ultimately, I think that there needs to be some sort of compassion for the father in this situation. I don't think it was a "kill the kid to punish the wife" situation; if so, why are the other two ok? Why such a public act?

His level of distress as described in the papers also indicates that this is not one of those cold-hearted, evil psychopaths who off their kids for whatever reason.

squib said...

The thought that she was just about to start prep and how excited she would have been... just breaks my heart

Perseus said...

"I think that there needs to be some sort of compassion for the father in this situation."

No. Jesus, no. None. He has forfeited a right for compassion, surely.

It's my problem with Jesus (among many problems). "Love thine enemy - forgive those who trespass..." No. Fuck 'em. Fuck thine enemy.

catlick said...

Melba I direct you to my first untimely and tasteless comment, and agree that your scenario looks plausible.

I think on the unthinkable nature of some acts and wonder if they are so "other" that they automatically lead us to consider mental illness. I still believe people can do unthinkable things without being sick/excused. For them we [should] have Perseus Justice.

Melba said...

I know, squib. It's just awful, truly horrendous.

And Perseus, I knew you would jump on that bit of what I said. So, you don't think there can be any room for humans being flawed beyond, say, a gambling thing or a drinking thing or something else that would be judged tolerable by you? You can't accept that maybe he did just snap, went crazy in that one instant, and now is so remorseful? It's like snapping and slapping your child in anger, and then feeling awful about it, times a million. It's the unthinkable and unimaginable. But it happened.

Again, you are being very black and white and I argue that life is just not that simple. I know you realise that. So what gives? Why are you like that?

Melba said...

Yes Catlick, but I didn't take your comment seriously because it was untimely and tasteless, but you're right.

I agree. Chief Justice Perseus Q for truly evil cunts. I just don't think this guy is one.

Perseus said...

I'm actually quite a forgiving man, day to day. I pride myself on my ability to forgive. I forgive here, I forgive there... I'm handing out forgiveness like snags at a barbie.

But not blokes who throw kids off bridges. That is one of those rare things I think is unforgivable.

Can't I have a benchmark?

Sheesh. There's only so much compassion a human owns to give out in their life. Can't we save our 'compassion' for people who deserve some? Like seriously, why waste our compasion on this bloke? Give it to his other kids, and his wife, and the ambos, and the cops, and the people who saw it happen... they deserve compassion. He gets nothing.

catlick said...

"....truly evil cunts. I just don't think this guy is one."

Well the time honoured way to find out is to gut him and scry his innards. Perseus?

Melba said...

Ok, Perseus, but compassion doesn't mean forgiveness, necessarily. I don't think that's what I was saying.

But anyway, I've said what I wanted to say.

Anonymous said...

Perseus and Catlick, you shouldn't assume that I am arguing on behalf of the father, or in fact the perpetrators of similar incidents. When I say "understand the situation" you shouldn't conflate that with "sympathise with" or "justify his actions".

Unlike many cases of infanticide and/or murder/suicides, this does not appear to have been planned, nor does he appear to have been an abusive father. And why pick only the girl, and not all three, as would be more usual in this sort of situation? Which makes it more important to understand the stressors that caused him to snap, because it could just as easily be the next person.

There's a saying, "there but for the grace of God go I". Speaking from personal experience, separations that involve kids are psychologically and financially ruinous, and you feel like your whole life is falling apart. I'm not saying that I'd ever snap and kill one of my children like this guy did, but things could have been a lot worse than they were, and I'd hope that under such circumstances I'd be the sort of person that would would cope, and not the sort of person like those who end up killing or maiming their kids, and/or taking their own life.

catlick said...

"The Boogeyman [sic] doth protest too much, methinks."

Melba said...

Meaning what, catlick?

Perseus said...

I think she's suggesting that Boogeyman could throw his kids off a bridge.

This of course is ludicrous, and another of Catlick's untimely jokes.

However, I have no doubts that Boogeyman would happily throw me off a bridge.

Anonymous said...

Only if you had a long elastic rope tied around your ankles, Perseus.

catlick said...

"I think she's suggesting that Boogeyman could throw his kids off a bridge."

I am deeply hurt at the suggestion Perseus. For you to have so misjudged me...well. Perhaps I have on occasion been thoughtless callous cruel and indifferent, but this: this sir is uncalled for.

(I was ragging on Boogey for the first par. And really, it was just an opportunity to use a tired old phrase.)

Melba said...

Sorry if I sounded combative. Must be the heat.

But I hear Boogeyman, and I understand him. Sometimes people can be very quick to think they understand a situation, when they haven't experienced certain things. I'm a parent, I've been through a separation and divorce, but luckily without an ugly custody battle.

BM's first paragraph is also my position. I'm not arguing in defence of this man, nor others who kill their children. Not saying it can ever, EVER be justified. Only saying that I can see how close to an edge we can all be at certain times in our lives, and that this man was possibly so close to his edge.

Isn't there any value in helping a person who might require help, rather than simply and totally judging them as bad, evil, deserves to die, etc?

Aren't we a society? Aren't we civilised now? What the fuck have we been working towards all these millennia? How do you spell millenna?

Fuck, it's so hot.

Melba said...

One that stretches to precisely 59metres, Boogeyman?

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

At first reading, I thought it was being suggested that we throw Perseus from a fridge

squib said...

I don't know how true the reports are that he left notes but it seems to suggest mental illness

Anonymous said...

I am deeply hurt at the suggestion Perseus.

I didn't think you were suggesting other than the first paragraph, Catlick, but if you want to throw Perseus off a fridge, be my guest. Or even into a fridge, if that takes your fancy. Although in this heat that might not be a punishment.

WitchOne said...

I'd like to see Pers thrown off a fridge, into a fridge is dangerous as you can't open them from the inside.

Or so I've heard.

Leilani said...

I cannot believe that the state government's reaction to this is to speed up the process of getting safety barriers on the Westgate Bridge - as if their absence is the reason behind this tragic event. Why not speed up some funding to Mensline or something.

Puss In Boots said...

I hadn't heard about this over here, so I went to the SMH to see what you were all talking about.

Is it so hard for a newspaper to just write the news? There was an article on there with a title The Last Moments of Darcey Freeman. I expected to open and read the facts of what happened. I didn't get past the second paragraph.

'It was meant to be Darcey's first day of school and her father had promised to take her. Now she will never know what made him change his mind and kill her on that fateful day' (I'm paraphrasing). Ugh. I can't stand that sort of sensationalist bullshit. I hate it when newspapers try to dictate how I will feel about a certain situation. This kind of crap is becoming more and more common these days. Sensationalist, sentimental crap, and Australian-centric news (let's find the only Australian connection in any international tragedy and run with that at the exclusion of all the thousands of other lives involved).

I'm sure if I'd been able to read the facts of this situation, I would have felt sad for the little girl. But the style of that article made me as nauseas as those stupid chain emails filled with crap about kids allowing a disabled child to play baseball with them. Ugh.

catlick said...

Perseus I note you are modern. Although your title brings to mind the rumored murder of Edward II, instead of getting all "mediaeval on his arse", you got all "20th C on his arse".

patchouligirl said...

I cannot believe that the state government's reaction to this is to speed up the process of getting safety barriers on the Westgate Bridge - as if their absence is the reason behind this tragic event.

Yeah they did the same thing at Mooney Mooney bridge on the Central Coast because too many people were suiciding off it. I'm not sure what the rationale was, maybe they thought they would go 'oh okay, now Mooney Mooney has a fence I think I'll keep living' instead of throwing themselves in front of the nearest train instead.

Ramon Insertnamehere said...

Catlick, there was a band called Edward the Second and the Red-hot Polkas.

It seemed funny at the time.

catlick said...

And it still does!